Patriotism

Round 1
Harlan: "Patriotism is unhealthy and delusional.

(I can assure you that I have seen patriotism at its worst; I live in Texas) It is often the cause of war, poverty and over all negative affect over the human race. I will start off addressing the bewildering question of: What is a nation? A nation is nothing. It is all in everyone's head. It is just an illusion, it is not real; it's just a different colored place on the globe; It is just a certain area of land, enclosed by imaginary borders; controlled by one regime or another. People become wholly focused on the bettering of their own nation, to the exclusion of all others. THIS IS NOT NATURAL in anyway whatsoever. We should have the mental state of bettering the human race, and not our own little clique. I do not understand how a human being can feel such twisted attachment towards such an illusion. This patriotism leads to irrational thinking. It makes people stupid. There is so much poverty, and america (which only comprises 5% of the world Population) takes so much of the resources. People just accept it, because it is their own great nation."

wryan: "I would disagree.

First, I will refute your arguments. 1. You said thatit is often the cause of war, poverty, and an over all negative affect on the human race. First of all, it does not cause war. It can make war somewhat easier to carry out, but it itself does not instigate war. Second of all, I fail to see how it can cause poverty. Can you please supply evidence of this? Finally, I will dissaprove your final argument with my points as to why patriotism is good. 2. A nation is something. It has a government, a structure, it owns land, it affects the lives of all of it's citizens. A nation is a common bond between a group of people, and is reinforced materially with laws and their affects. 3. Partiotism does not cause people to become wholly obsessed with only their own nation. They can still think about, and be active in, bettering the human race. All patriotism is is another factor in people's worldview, and it is not an over riding one. 4. Patriotism has very little to do with why America uses so many resources. The reasons why america uses more resources are far moe varied. Some of them are, the fact that we are more advanced nation, and have more things that use resources. Another reason is that we are so entrenched in our wasteful, materialistic way of life that we have alot of trouble toning down our use of resources. It is not only patriots who are contributing to this,it is everyone. I would also like to make several points as to why patriotism is good. 1. Patriotism ties a nation together. It help's it's citizen's present a united front, and provides bonds of brotherhood to everyone therein. Without paqtriotism it would be very hard to make an army. If there where no patriots, and therefore no army, then the nation would be open to attack from anyone, and essentially defenseless. 2. Patriotism can promote positive values. A patriot will generally support their nation's values. In america, (the example you used), these values include, liberty,human equality, and justice. I see nothing wrong with people being supportive of this. Finally, on a side note, America is the greatest nation in the world. We are the most successful democracy in the world and we have more or less the highest quality of living and the most rights of any nation in the world. Admittedly, America has it's faults, but it is still the best. I am proud of my country, but I can still disagree with some of it's policies."

Round 2
Harlan: "Very good job.

-The mentality of patriotism leads people to think of there nation as their identity. They then, obviously, think of a separate nation as a different nation as a separate and competing nation. They then make no moves to help, or care about, the other nation's position. -A nation is not something. It is an interesting concept, though. There are material Humans and they are on a ball that is earth, what is a nation? It is just an area under the control of one government, whose policies can change frequently. Sure, in the sense that a nation is a noun, it is "something", but it has no real significance, when you get to the core of instinctual and natural impulses of life. -What I am talking about is just patriotism, its Patriotism (wit' a capitol P). It is indeed obsessive, and many people are too limited by patriotism to think liberally at all. They get angered to hear others say things against America. They do not have the capacity to disagree with America. Anything goes, as long as it coincides with what is American. If you don't believe me, let me tell you a true story from real life. This happened to me just the other day: A friend of mine and I were having our own argument regarding Fidel Castro and Cuba in general. I will not go into details of the argument, for that is off topic. Later that night I emailed him a web link to a very convincing article. I was having a civilized debate with a friend, so I thought. The next day, (today, actually) while having another heated discussion (about whether an episode of the twilight zone could be considered "literature") and he was stubbornly frustrated with me informed me that he deleted that whole email I sent him without reading the article and that "My mom says you're an anti-american son of a b" Now do you think that it is not obsessive? -My point there in the opening argument was only that Americans are greedy and utilize other's resources for their own country. Now I will address your reasons why patriotism is "good": -From, an idealistic point of view, I may see the advantages of propagandizing, twisting, and manipulating another person for your own utilization in the army. -yes, of course these values are perfectly all right, and even respect and admire them myself, but patriotism goes beyond the concepts of the government and to the decisions of the government (which often are not that great). If you include the values of our GOVERNMENT, then torture, death and destruction for wealth, unfair trials, wire tapping, and bribery are all values. (God bless America!) Lastly, I would like to note that patriotism does not make better decisions, but worst ones. A population full of skeptics would make much better decisions, than a bunch of overly loyal patriots. In order to have a clear mind, I suggest to all not to be a slave to patriotism."

wryan: "I would like to provide definitions for a few terms.

Nation: 1 : a community of people composed of one or more nationalities usually with its own territory and government 2 : the territory of a nation Patriotism as defined by Webster's Dictionary: A feeling of love and devotion to one's own homeland. Now I will continue my refutation of your points. 1. This definition directly contradicts your first point. Patriotism is certainly a part of some people's identitys, but it is by no means the most important part of their identity. There is no reason that just because they love their own nation that they will automatically view all other nations as competing and make no moves to support them.(Which is what you said) 2. A nation is a very real and concrete structure. It is materially represented by the government and laws. It has a huge effect on it's citizens through law's and it's actions. It has material representation in the territory it controls. Your argument that it ha no value at the deepest and most instinctual levels is deeply flawed. Honestly, very little has a real signifigance when you get to the core of instinctual and natural impulses of life. Saying that patriotism is one of those things does nothing to help support your point. 3. What you are talking about is not patriotism. Patriotism can, and most often is, merely a love of one's country. It does not mean that you are automatically xenophobic, or that you will dismiss other's beliefs. While some people who are xenophobic or narrow minded are patriots, you are in error when you automatically say one causes the other, when there is little but slight anecdotal evidence to that effect. There are many patriots who wholeheartedly support open discussion and debate about their countrie's policies. As James MAdison once said "It is because I love my country that I question it." 4. If that was your point then I fail to see how it has anything to do with patriotism. This point is not topical. You have failed to provide evidence as to why patriotism has any role in American greed. I will now rebuild my points and disprove your refutations. 1. Having an army is not for one individual's specific benefit, it is for the good of everyone. Without an army it would be impossible for anyone to prevent a hostile force from killing, taking power, and just generally destroying at will. Everyone benefits from having an army. 2. There is no reason that patriots must share their government's values. I think that you would be hard pressed to find any signifigant amount of people who honestly beleive that bribery and death and destruction for wealth are good. Again, you have made a fundamental attribution error as to the cause of an action, and you have made this error on shaky anecdotal evidence at that. And your final point: People need to have some sort of set of values. Without some core principles and beleifs, it would be inpossible to ever make any meaningful decisions. I would argue that patriotism will only be good for the nation, as it will bind it together and make it easier for the nation to protect the interest's of it's people. As to your assertion that "A population full of skeptics would make much better decisions, than a bunch of overly loyal patriots", you have betrayed yourself with your choice of adjectives. The key word in that sentence is overly loyal. being overly loyal to anything will be bad, not just being overly loyal to one's country. The mere word "overly" by definition makes an idea bad. My point here is that we are not arguing whether "overly loyal" patriotism is bad, we are arguing whether patriotism is bad. You are using overly extreme examples that are not representative of any greater whole, and that are highly subjective and biased. In summary, patriotism is a positive force for good. It helps bind us together in pursuit of common goals. Without patriotism, we never would have formed societies of any sort. Without enthusiam, we would have never survived as a race."