Civil Rights in businesses does nothing more then mask the problem and should be abolished.

=='''Civil Rights in businesses does nothing more then mask the problem and should be abolished. - 11/26/2007 (https://www.debate.org/debates/Civil-Rights-in-businesses-does-nothing-more-then-mask-the-problem-and-should-be-abolished/1/)'''==

Round 1
italia4356: "I believe civil rights should be done away with when it comes to businesses. I believe that businesses should have the choice to hire or fire anyone for any reason. If a business does not want to hire or serve a particular race or age or gender of people then that should be completely up to the business. For example a law that forces a white racist to serve black people against his will only masks the still present racist feelings in the white owner. Now black people are going to the business and buying goods, they are supporting this business with their money, yet they have no idea that the very business they are supporting financially through the buying of goods, is owned by a racist. These customers are now unknowingly supporting a racist. The black customers are giving money to a business that is owned by a person who hates them. But, because of civil rights and the law, that business remains in a forced cloak of good, a cloak of good over a heart of bigotry. Now, if the business was allowed to choose to serve whites only, then people would learn about how that business is racist and they would no longer support that business. If I, a white person, learned that a business would serve me, but not serve black people, then I myself would not support that business. In addition I would tell as many people as I could to not support that business. People will want to talk to the owner, local people in town will want to talk with the owner, debates will be starting, thinking will be started, and that discussion and thinking is just what is needed to solve the problem. It is just a lack of understanding that causes a person to be racist. Once they understand they will no longer be racist. Am I saying converting a racist will be easy? Absolutely not, but it is very possible and necessary to truly solving the problem. One of my repeating themes is that laws do not solve problems. If laws solved problems, then that would be a nice thought, yet in the real world that just isn't so. To simply set a law in place to fix a problem is just too easy of a solution to be the right one. The solution is knowledge and understanding, and that is a hard and rocky path, but in the end will pay off greatly. Civil rights when it comes to goverment is absolutely right, but when it comes to businesses, I believe civil rights is absolutely wrong. We must stop pretending, and and start being real, as hard as that might be."

Retrospace18: "I firmly believe in civil rights and believe that they are in place for the greater good, of the people and the economy. Im a fan of bullets and numbers so ill proceed in that fashion.

1)If civil rights were done away with, all the hard work, jail terms, and even deaths of the civil rights activist would have been in vain. The civil war would have been in vain and ultimately taught in schools, a war of no reason. Far too many lives and years were dedicated to the push of equal rights, for the government to turn its back.

2)You can not only do away with civil rights in the business. This would spread like wild fire, ending up in schools, Churches, and politics.

3)Doing away with civil rights, would encourage racist groups to become more organized again, such as the Kkk and The Black Panthers. The only thing doing away with civil rights in business would do, would be to spread hate and anger to individual races, once again.

4)Forcing "racists" to serve the hated race only makes the "racists" tolerant of said race. When you have no choice about something, you become tolerant of it, especially if its forced by the law. In a way, making racists serve the hated race, makes them not become racists. It further progress the civil rights. This works vis versa. The customers, not knowing they are supporting a racist, creates a system of false trust. Which in the case of civil rights is a good thing. People live day to day wearing masks, and for the greater good, its a good thing that people are "fake" on the subject of civil rights.

5)A cloak of good over a heart of bigotry, is not always a bad thing. As i pointed out earlier, sometimes a facade is what is needed to keep order.

6)"Now, if the business was allowed to choose to serve whites only, then people would learn about how that business is racist and they would no longer support that business. "-Italia

No, in fact it would be the direct opposite. More racists people would come out and support a business allowed to be racist. In the long run, allowing civil rights to be done away with would only bring out more racists and create another 1960's.

"If I, a white person, learned that a business would serve me, but not serve black people, then I myself would not support that business."-Italia

Yes, because you are a good person, but sadly alot of people are not, and would only further support said racist company.

7)It seems as if you are trying to say, that the only way to flush out racism is to allow it to continue in business. This makes not sense to me. There is still a large underground group of people, who believe firmly in racism and discrimination. This would only bring them out and in the end, having to create another civil rights movement. This would only push the human race, backwards in time, not forward.

8)No, laws do not, solve problems. But the people who fought for equal rights, as i mentioned in bullet number one, do, solve and help change the problem.

9)"We must stop pretending, and and start being real, as hard as that might be."-Italia

For the greater good of the country and human rights, pretending would in the end ,be best."

Round 2
italia4356: "watied to long to type this but the civil war and those who died would not have died in vein at all. Slavery was ended, everyone has a right to vote now, and a slew of other good things came about. Ending the segregation in schools. When it come to government there should absolutly be civil rights because the government is everyones but when it come to a buseinss that people choose to go to that is a much different. People do not need to go to these businesses they choose to and when a person makes a choice that mean they must follow the rules of the business, it would be like someone coming into your house and then the government telling you have to be nice to them. It doesn't work, forcing people to be good does nothing but cause more problems."

Retrospace18: "I am passing a round, to let the my opponent post his round, since he did not have adequate time previously.

I feel that posting a round of argumentation would give me an unfair advantage. Putting the opponent behind a round.

Sorry if you see this as stalling, but i only see it as being fair."

Round 3
italia4356: "1.) "If civil rights were done away with, all the hard work, jail terms, and even deaths of the civil rights activist would have been in vain" (Retrospace) Regardless of what laws are passes or abolished the progress that was made through peoples sacrifices to promote equality will never be in vein. The progress can also never be undone because then didn't just simply force people to be good the people who fought for equality changed how people think and that is the true victory not some law. Laws can be done and un done but is it much harder to change the way a person thinks which make the victory of doing so that much greater. So it is pretty naive to say undoing some law is going to undo years of sacrifices and achievements.

2.) You "say undoing civil rights in business will spread like wild fire and end up in schools, churches, and government" (Retrospace).It sounds like you think undoing civil rights in business will lead to widespread discrimination and hatred. But what you may not understand is, widespread discrimination and hatred is exactly what we have right now. Compare inner city public school and funding to other public schools in the country. How do you explain the lack of funding or interest. Churches don't allow gay people to get married not only in their church but in non religious marriages as well and are linked into the government breaking the 1st amendment, separation of church and state. And on to the government which is probably the most discriminatory group of all. How many non white male presidents have you seen. Race and sex of presidents is just one of the proof of discrimination. The government is corrupted with big business, and discriminates against the majority of the country herding the population like sheep and coming up with tax breaks and laws that allow big business to take the populations money. Food industries are allowed to right off advertising and slotting fees on their taxes which mean the people are paying for big food industries advertising exp. There are so many. And they are biased against atheist because by printing opinionated gods all over the currency and pledges. And they also do not allow gay marriage and religious view.

3.)"Doing away with civil rights, would encourage racist groups to become more organized again"(Retrospace). Who cares? So your saying it is better to have a secrete country of racist then for people to deal with the problem. You are saying instead of dealing with the problem lets pretend that it isn't there. All that does is preserve the problem and hinder any type of possible growth.

4.)"The customers, not knowing they are supporting a racist, creates a system of false trust. Which in the case of civil rights is a good thing. People live day to day wearing masks, and for the greater good, its a good thing that people are "fake" on the subject of civil rights"(Retrospace). Retro space everything your saying benefits my argument. Again you are saying that having a society of liars and secrets is better then being bold and honest. Your argument has no hope, you are trying to persuade people that lying is better then telling the truth.

5.)"A cloak of good over a heart of bigotry, is not always a bad thing. As i pointed out earlier, sometimes a facade is what is needed to keep order" (Retrospace).Again, you are saying lying is better then telling the truth, I disagree. Lying hinders any hope of solving the problem because it allow the problem to remain hidden and un addressed.

6.) a. "More racists people would come out and support a business allowed to be racist"(Retrospace). So what? Wonderful? That would bring racist people out of the shadows. Then people would know who is racist, people would have disagreements, and people would begin to talk and argue. Am I saying that there is not going to be any violence from racist people coming out of the closet, absolutely not, there will definitely be some violence. But i do not think there everyone is going to run out and start killing people. If fights arise then so be it, it is better to fight about something then to keep it a secret, in the end it will make us closer. And I am not condoning violence in anyway, violence doesn't solve problems either it only creates fear and resentment. b. This was a comment to a previous comment by me about If i learned a business was racist i would no longer support that business. "Yes, because you are a good person, but sadly alot of people are not, and would only further support said racist company" (Retrospace). I believe people enjoy peace and happiness more then hate and fighting, so I will put my faith in the people.

7.)"It seems as if you are trying to say, that the only way to flush out racism is to allow it to continue in business this makes not sense to me." Civil rights was passed in 1964 and has been around for 44 years and racism and discrimination is still prevalent even retrospace agree with me. "There is still a large underground group of people, who believe firmly in racism and discrimination" (Retrospace).

8.)"No, laws do not, solve problems. But the people who fought for equal rights, as i mentioned in bullet number one, do, solve and help change the problem" (Retrospace) I completely agree with you here.

9.) This was retrospaces entire argument on bullet 9.))" "We must stop pretending, and and start being real, as hard as that might be."-Italia

For the greater good of the country and human rights, pretending would in the end ,be best. " Retrospace so the crux of your argument is that pretending, hiding the problem, and lying is the best route of action. I disagree, I am arguing the openness, reality, and honesty is the best route of action or at least better then lying to solve the problem of discrimination. I believe honesty is the best choice, you believe lying is the best choice. We will just have to let the people decide."

Retrospace18: Retrospace18 forfeited this round.

Round 4
italia4356: "There are no easy ways out in life, making a law to fix a problem is much too easy and does not to fix the problem."

Retrospace18: Retrospace18 forfeited this round.

Round 5
italia4356: "i dont want to type this but i have to type words in order for me to submit so i will continue typing words instead of just holding down the letter button to fill in characters lets see if this is enough words"

Retrospace18: Retrospace18 forfeited this round.