Character is best forged by Mental Pain

Round 1
Ivisman96: "The world is not a nice place. There are nice things in it, but to solely be concerned with the 'niceness' leaves one vulnerable and unprepared. Just as steel is forged by fire, so too, is character forged by pain."

easy2know: "First 1visman96 must be willing to remove the word "solely" as this would be silly putting all my eggs in one basket..? If not I will forfeit anything below now..!

Before my first rebuttal some will consider my way a bit unusual, my arguments are based more on real life experiences of others and self rather than statistics or polls. Not that statistics and polls are not true,(and some are not)facts are defiantly the way to prove "some" points, but the "sources" of some facts can be completely bias and hinder the findings of actual truths. Like the skills of some lawyers twisting the facts to fit there need to succeed,"regardless of the many family's they destroy"..! Where have all our ethics gone..my heart goes out to the many,many,Goldman's of this world..! Let me begin by saying my glass has been always half full, so my world is a is a nice place to be. I'm not saying that the trials and tribulations of life haven't hardened many in their walk of life, including myself. Some relate character building through this experience of trial and suffering as the only means of their success. If your lucky it's just the beginning of your journey. The reasons some things in this world are nice is because man has a teacher that is forever teaching, call it Mother Nature, God, Creator, etc, no matter what our beliefs all our life we will be forever students, we learn how to make the best of what we have, this is the way we begin to build character. A persons character is only judged by their works, being nice is one of them, if we have hardened hearts we have to be careful on what we may become. Being nice or having compassion for all creatures is true humanism and a lesson we all should have all learned from the great Native Peoples. I totally understand how birds of pray work, and so do many others, their stealthiness is diminishing, their shadows are getting more visible. To conclude my opening statement I'd like to end with saying in my opinion niceness does not leave one vulnerable or unprepared and while some may experience pain in building character this does not mean other ways are lesser. Woodrow Wilson: If you will think about what you ought to do for other people, your character will take care of itself. Character is a by-product, and any man who devotes himself to its cultivation in his own case will become a selfish prig."

Round 2
Ivisman96: "Thanks so much for taking this debate, easy2know. I'm sure we'll both learn something by the end of it!

I'll first address your points and then I'll address my topic statement and show support for it. I'm not quite sure why you disagree with the word 'solely'...I think it IS important because that is exactly my point...in other words, to be a well-rounded person takes experiencing both sides of an equation. 'Solely' infers 'only'. So maybe my opening argument should read 'but to only be concerned'...Because life is about 'pursuing' the positive. You mentioned a 'force' that guides us. In every creed, religion, belief system, there is always two sides: dark/light, yin/yang, good/evil, optimism/pessimism. You cannot have one without the other. To acknowledge the other side is not necessarily to side with it. I am an optimist as well. However, if I did not recognize evil, or risk, or negatives, how can I know when to hold em, fold em, fight or walk away? You cannot truly know the other side unless you experience it. Reading about Hawaii is not the same as being there. You may 'know' it exists, but without experiencing it you can't truly 'know' it. The following are secondary points but need addressing. On the subject of personal experiences, I have to disagree. The world is a big place. To base your argument on 'individual' experiences is, I believe, short-sighted. It may work for YOU, personally. But is it an accurate picture of the world as it is ? You're experiences are unique to you and do not necessarily correspond to the world as a whole. They are also colored by your upbringing, mental processes, values, etc. which may not reflect the world as a whole. Your insistence of their being a 'guiding' force for example. While you and I may believe in the same 'guiding force', what about an atheist who has no guiding force ? Your experience would not necessarily pertain to them. That is where studies and statistics come in. statistics-A collection of measurements, often related to demographic information such as population counts, incomes, population counts at different ages, etc.-Wictionary.org Statistics typically use a LARGE sampling of a group scientifically determined to represent a particular 'set'. Secondly, lawyers do not 'twist' facts 'to suit their need to succeed'. I realize you said 'some' and their are bad apples in every profession. However, I feel lawyers are unfairly maligned. Lawyers swear an oath : "I will employ for the purpose of maintaining the causes confided to me such means only as are consistent with truth and honor, and will never seek to mislead the judge or jury by an artifice or false statement of fact or law;" Also, " I will abstain from all offensive personality, and advance no fact prejudicial to the honor or reputation of a party or witness, UNLESS REQUIRED BY THE JUSTICE OF THE CAUSE WITH WHOM I AM CHARGED; I will never reject, from any consideration personal to myself, the cause of the defenseless or oppressed, or delay any person's cause for lucre or malice." -excerpt from the Lawyer's Oath What this means is that they have to fight for their clients' rights. Whether or not THEY believe that the client is guilty. Remember, THEY don't pass judgement...a jury or judge does that. That goes directly to our Constitution and 'innocent until PROVEN guilty'. OJ was found not guilty by a 'jury of his peers', not his lawyer. Some people allow adversity to 'harden' their heart, as you put it. And VOILA! That is what I'm talking about. You CANNOT know what you will do, who you REALLY are until you experience adversity. Because you cannot know what you truly will do until you are in that situation. If, having experienced adversity, you come out of it a stronger person, with a stronger faith and belief in what matters to you, your CHARACTER becomes stronger. Like Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars movies, he was all well and good until he experienced pain and loss...and went over to the dark side. Even Jesus was tempted by the devil, and he came out of it whole. Take the story of Job; God PERSONALLY set upon throwing every nasty thing at him...and he became stronger for it. So, adversity is the final test...if it doesn't kill you (harden your heart) it makes you stronger. There's alot of truth in that. But if you never experience it you are at a disadvantage the first time you do. You've seemed to confused my position in that I'm against niceness. I'm not. I'm against 'naiveness'...Because what you DON"T know CAN hurt you. But to go back to my topic statement, Character is Best Forged by Mental Pain, it is true. Because anybody can smile when things are going good. It's when things are bad and you still smile because it will help someone, THAT is strong character."

easy2know: "Your welcome 1visman..learning is good..but we should keep in mind new arguments could be faulty in ways we don't at first appreciate.

Asking you to remove the word was because of course there are many ways in character building, my point was just that, the paths we choose are many. ('Solely' infers 'only'. So maybe my opening argument should read 'but to only be concerned') is no different. My objective in this debate should not be to defeat you, but for the two sides to share knowledge so that one or both has a better understanding of what is true. Even in a short term debate to win an argument even if you are wrong, is wrong, the long term result is that neither person has become any wiser. Everyone should be able distinguish good from evil, but they don't. Are you saying if one doesn't experience the good, the bad, and the ugly their character will not be as good or well rounded as yours..? You are right about experience helping determine some character traits, but like a young bird pushed from its nest the odds are it will soar away in the wind. Most will never experience the same things in life..but most will adapt in other ways you or I will never experience, a balance not explained away by any man...! On the secondary points that you felt are in need addressing, if you read it correctly you would have read (my arguments are based more on real life experiences of "OTHERS" and "SELF") I do include myself and others as part of this world, and it has not only worked for me but it has given me FIRST HAND information, like the vegetarian who gets the FIRST HAND grains instead of SECOND HAND grains through meats..! Just remember "YOU" have started labeling my methods to be less than acceptable because of possible upbringing, mental processes, values, etc. Please don't insult my intelligence with the meaning of studies, statistics, oaths of lawyers, etc. I will not only stand by my comment that SOME lawyers twist their facts to fit their need...but MANY do...!! Adversity can effect each of us on so many different levels, it could come as early as school years, or never. If we can agree on anything it is this, adversity is one of the most potent forces in life. It shapes your character, and defines your path. Each of us faces an assortment of adversities every day, ranging from minor hassles to major setbacks and challenges, even tragedies. But just coping with or trying to overcoming adversity for some, on our own, can make the toughest people crumble. I didn't want to bring religious aspects into this debate but in short it has saved so many souls it is well worth mentioning. As 1visman mentioned there are many different beliefs and it is up to individuals to decide their path. It can be very difficult to know if a particular thing is true, such as whether a particular religion is true or whether a medicine is effective or whether a politician will do a good job. But it should not be that difficult to recognize when we don't know something. I believe that people can learn that ability, but unfortunately our schools and our culture as a whole do little to help people develop it. If we care about the welfare of humanity, this is something that must change. To summarize, adversity can present several problems. One is believing our own adversity's are worse than others. It is difficult to be sure of our reasons for things that happen to us, some will say its our fate, but if we are to avoid fooling ourselves, we should recognize that sometimes adversity shapes us into something not very nice, when we realize we aren't as noble as we tell ourselves, it may be to late. We should also be careful when listening to other people's explanations for what they do. Intentional or not, there might be important reasons other than the ones they tell us. Finally, if we are debating some issue, we have better hope of making progress if we make a serious attempt to figure out the underlying reasons that our opinions are different from those on the other side. We should debate the real issues, not rationalizations."

Round 3
Ivisman96: "I'd like to see if we can't find some common ground on which to debate this. You are of the opinion that 'personal' experience (yours and what you observe in others) is a valid basis for ascertaining 'truths' of the world. I simply contend that it is not because your 'experiences' are unique to you, as well as your 'interpretations' of others experiences. Einstein knew this when he postulated his theory of relativity (which takes into account the 'experience' (or point of view) of the observer). By quoting facts, statistics, etc. I am not attempting to 'insult your intelligence'. I am merely operating on the above principle, that whatever you or I may 'think' it is not a basis for uncovering the worlds's truths.

I also believe you can 'learn' from debates, but I disagree that it is not about winning. In a presidential debate, (arguably one of the most important debates), I'm sure that the candidates learn about others and themselves (and possibly the issues themselves) but they are there to 'win' their argument. (here is where I would usually quote a source on what the objective of a debate is defined as, but I won't). Also, because we have had dealings before, you are mistakenly making this about MY character. I am simply debating my position on why 'character is best forged by mental pain'. I am purposely trying to avoid relating MY experiences, because again, that is unique to me and may not apply to other people or the world at large. Using your own words, "We should debate the real issues, not rationalizations." I agree. And the REAL topic of debate is not that "niceness" is not a factor in determining one's character, or that "adversity" is problematic. The real topic is that Mental Pain forges CHaracter the best, which I outlined in my first argument, and that concentrating ONLY on niceness in the world leaves you unprepared to face adversity as strongly as if you had experienced pain before. There are people who crumble; but unless they die, they come back stronger than before, much like a broken bone heals stronger than it was originally. And that is what I'm trying to have someone see."

easy2know: "Some common grounds have already been established,some that we have agreed on and some we differ.Now we are at a stage crucial on how we are to proceed.In most cases when two people disagree ego steps in to shows its ugly face,the best case scenario would be the other person ends up agreeing.By using Einstein you assume that he was correct on all his"theory's",his quest for truths started with his experiences and were unique to him and his surroundings.He also had his whole life searching and trying to uncover the world's truths,like most of us we seek the meanings of life,but unfortunately and in reality the best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest.An other debate perhaps.We do agree on"learning"from debating,but why we differ on the winning aspect is.Like presidential debates their obsessiveness of winning has blind-sighted their real objectives,and that is to explain how issues can be solved or worked out.If we suggest that our opponent is wrong for disagreeing with us,he is likely to get angry and concentrate only on winning the argument,not on understanding the points we are trying to make. This only leads to further cloud the real issues,if we turn out to be wrong after ridiculing our opponent,we then must either refuse to acknowledge the truth or suffer considerable embarrassment.There is a danger in the multiplicity of knowledge where we can lose sight of what is essential,this seems to be happening more and more as man so arrogantly thinks he has all the answers.

Again my understanding of adversity is through my own experiences as yours is,and many others. Your fervent beliefs that this forges the"best"character does not convince me or the many that "have" a wonderful character "without" experiencing"any"adversity's(and for them I say praise the Lord)Like a parent who protects their children,(but informing them of the possible adversity's,Murphy's Law if you will) you always hope their lives will be better. As they grow they will face some serious trials such as deaths in war or of loved ones at home,etc.but by good parenting, mentoring,we can make these young new lives build character by teaching the foundations of good character,be honest,don't cheat or steal,be reliable,have courage to do the right thing,build a good reputation,be loyal,stand by your family,friends and country.

As you have stated you have experienced Mental Pain which in turn made you a better person,but unless they die,they come back stronger than before,much like a broken bone heals stronger than it was originally.You left out the many millions who barely survived, and the quality of their life is so diminished most are unable to even do the slightest things we all take for granted.My point is this,most of these folks have experienced more mental anguish than imaginable yet they still are beacons of light that inspire us on what it means to be humble.Facing your adversity's and portraying the effects they have had on you,like you said should not apply to all as they are your experiences. And in general that is my point,mental pain does not necessarily make a better character,an example how we should approch character development,The Wooden Bowl: A frail old man went to live with his son, daughter-in-law, and four-year-old grandson. The old man's hands trembled, his eyesight was blurred, and his step faltered. The family ate together at the table.But, the elderly grandfather's shaky hands and failing sight made eating difficult. Peas rolled off his spoon onto the floor. When he grasped the glass, milk spilled on the tablecloth.

The son and daughter-in-law became irritated with the mess."We must do something about father," said the son."I've had enough of his spilled milk, noisy eating,and food on the floor."So,the husband and wife set a small table in the corner. There,Grandfather ate alone while the rest of the family enjoyed dinner.Since Grandfather had broken a dish or two,his food was served in a wooden bowl!

When the family glanced in Grandfather's direction,sometimes he had a tear in his eye as he sat alone.Still,the only words the couple had for him were sharp admonitions when he dropped a fork or spilled food.

The four-yearold watched it all in silence. One evening before supper,the father noticed his son playing with wood scraps on the floor. He asked the child sweetly,"What are you making?"Just as sweetly,the boy responded,"Oh,I am making a little bowl for you and Mama to eat your food in when I grow up."The four-year-old smiled and went back to work.The words so struck the parents so that they were speechless.Then tears started to stream down their cheeks.Though no word was spoken,both knew what must be done. That evening the husband took Grandfather's hand and gently led him back back to the family table.For the remainder of his days he ate every meal with the family.And for some reason,neither husband nor wife seemed to care any longer when a fork was dropped,milk spilled,or the tablecloth soiled."

Round 4
Ivisman96: "Thank you for your eloquent reply. Love the story btw. It's obvious you've put alot of thought into this and conducted yourself nobly. However, I don't believe that we're making much headway with this debate, instead being concerned with defining the playing field. I will agree to just disagree on the nature of debate, on the the multi-faceted nature of experience, and relating experience to actual fact. Which leaves the question posed by the initial Topic of Debate: That I believe Character is Best forged by Mental Pain, and it's corollary, that someone who only experiences niceness is ill-prepared for adversity.

In my first round, I tried to illustrate (not very well obviously) that one's experience does not make it true. It may be true for him, but it cannot hold up as a measure of the world. In the second round, I tried to correlate how 'knowing' or 'reading' or being 'taught' something doesn't necessarily allow you to understand it's true nature. That is only by EXPERIENCING it. Without experience, you're relying on second-hand accounts. Relaying some of my own personal experiences (I'm trying hard not to 'insult' you with facts and figures), Van Gogh is a favorite artist of mine, and I have a number of his books. However, once I saw a real Van Gogh, 'in the flesh' so to speak, I was almost moved to tears. And that is how it is with mental pain. Mental pain forces you out of your comfort zone. I'm not saying we should cause anyone mental pain. I'm saying it exists; the death of a loved one, a divorce, losing your job. And if it doesn't cause you to crumble, and beat you, you come back stronger and more able to handle that other thing that is thrown at you. Niceness, comfort, familiarity all require minimal or no effort. It requires effort to pull yourself out of an empty bed because your spouse left you, or to go into work the day after a trusted friend stole your big account after you confided in them, or holding your mother's hand as she slowly stopped breathing,,,watching the pulse in her neck slowly, ever so slowly, fade away. These things require effort. And, just like muscles in the body, effort makes you stronger. The greater the effort, the stronger you become. Adversity also makes you humble. It makes you appreciate what you have, your gifts, your accomplishments, your efforts. And it allows you to see through people who don't put in the real effort, but instead seek excuses. You were a drill sergeant...you know this. You seem to think that I think that my experiences make me better than everyone else. Nothing could be further from the truth. I take people to task BECAUSE I am the same as them. No better. But I didn't take excuses for myself and I don't take excuses from others either. I did it and I'm no better than anyone else, so why can't they ? (that's a rhetorical question, I don't really expect an answer--I understand 'real' impediments to progress; it's lack of effort, laziness, or sense of entitlement that burns me). I eagerly await your response."

easy2know: "Let me first thank-you for your kind words, as far as making headway my opinion would be we are going where no one has gone before, seriously what little headway we have made it is at least positive, and there seems to be less emphasizing on just winning. To me this makes for a much more productive debate.

Your belief on Character is Best forged by Mental Pain is without doubt "a way" to build character, however adversity does not sit back and say oh boy here's someone nice he is ill prepared let me sock it to em, you know as well as I adversity comes like a thief in the night, it chooses us with no warning or how it will effect one. So my point is "no one" can prepare for some of life's most devastating events, but how one handles its aftermath is usually determined on the strength or faith some individuals have. My opinion is based on real people who have experienced mind altering experiences, the ones who seemed to fare the best were mostly men of the cloth, whether it be there "niceness" there "will" to survive or a strength from an entity separate from the norm. Regardless of the hows we all enter into adversity unprepared, like how you dealt with your Moms death, I also came out of boot camp on an emergency leave only to find my Mother on her death bed, that very day I carried her 80 lb. frame into the hospital, her condition was grave, as she had heart failure. She died within hours after her arrival, as you watched your Mom fade away I'm sure you felt things we all experience when the ones we love depart. After my Mothers passing her doctor explained her heart had stopped twice, they broke all her ribs reviving her the first time. He explained further as she became conscious she told him my baby is dead I don't want to live anymore..you see three weeks prior I had another emergency leave, my youngest brother was killed by a drunk driver...the doctor said she lost the "will" to live. Even as a fresh brazen Marine I was reduced to a withering mass of jello, there was no "mental pain" in the physical sense. There was a high anxiety as to the whys..then those damm statistics came into play...the odds are1 out of four in a family will die before their time. This of course didn't quell the anxiety's. My Mother still had my Dad my brother and two sisters..so the whys continued, again no mental pain in the physical sense. For me this type adversity had more of a slow rationalizing effect...to fast forward into the days my rifle was aimed at another human being is where the real "mental pain" accrued. This pain is like no other..there is no rational explanations..dealing with these issues is a daily battle..my brothers and sisters that gave the "ultimate" they are what sustains me. Kind of ironic but in a sense something Einstein said is fitting: A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Semper-Fi.....:o)"

Round 5
Ivisman96: "First off, you have my sympathies on your losses.

Although eloquent in his reply, my opponent has not disproved my contention that Character is best forged by Mental Pain and to rely SOLELY(i.e.ONLY)on learning through 'niceness' leaves you vulnerable. I went on to say that if the 'pain' doesn't kill you (a euphemism for having you forsake goodness of your soul, which in turn is the 'death' of the soul) it will make you stronger. I allowed my opponent to dictate the format of the debate to PERSONAL experiences and have deliberately not cited facts or figures to back up my claims. I have also tried to relegate experience to my own personal experiences, purposely not detailing the myriad number of people throughout the world who have risen above dire situations, poor upbringing or physical/mental afflictions for which history is rife with. My opponent has also stated that 'life experiences' of pain are unavoidable if you live long enough and relegated some of his own personal experiences of pain. And by so doing has helped me prove my case. Case in point: Everyone knows that 'drunk driving' shows at best a morally ambiguous character or just reckless youth. I'm sure this drunk driver was 'told' that to drive drunk was wrong. I'm sure they've heard news stories,watched TV reports, read newspaper highlights. The only thing that was missing was EXPERIENCING. In my previous rounds, I lamented that unless someone 'experiences' something, they in fact, cannot truly know it and it becomes detached from them. However, if a potential drunk driver had their spouse killed because of a drunk driver, what is the likelihood that they will drink and drive ? The pain of loss makes it 'real' for them and they 'understand' the problem like no one else who has not lost a loved one to drunk driving. And thus, strengthens their character. Mental pain affects people like no other experience. We will ALL have mental pain in our lives. Knowing mental pain firsthand makes us want to assure that no other human being goes through it. It Makes parents not want their children to go through it. Enlightens those souls who would make a difference. Mother Teresa is widely known to have started her ministry by going to the slums of India and seeing it FIRSTHAND, in the trenches. We have had our differences, Easy2know. For what you've experienced,"I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy" is a very apt saying. Because I've been there it comes from the heart, and is not just a saying."

easy2know: "My views are"pain"is NOT necessarily the best way to build character,and how niceness does NOT leave us"vulnerable"in-fact niceness is a building block of character.

As we know every human will react to adversity different,it will depend on how in earlier years they were influenced in their development.(with no major adversities)If a childs upbringing was consistent with the teachings of good ethics and were established,the child would most likely handle most situations or misfortunes.For more U can go to:www.charactercounts.org/defsix.htm This is"only"to give some insight on"how"to build psychological deterrence to adversity in ones journey.It is important we understand that most parents try to instill these basic values in our children,not just for their survival,but so they are aware of the consequences of bad or unruly behavior. Using 1vismans analogies of drunk drivers can actually help me prove a vital point,if the drunk driver makes the choice to drive(just as drinking in excess is a choice)they without a doubt are in no condition to make rational decisions.However those who choose not to drive think SOLELY(i.e.ONLY)on the principles of what makes a better character,to drive drunk,or not to drive drunk,this is the sign of good character.(and all possible without experiencing adversities)Some will say if you have never been to Hawaii and just read about it,the experience is not the same,this statement leads one think one who reads a book on tropical islands,with warm breezes,warm ocean waters,delicious fruits,etc will never see it as well as they did.While believing myself on the job training does usually make a more"immediate"success,in reality down the road the one who studied extensively on this certain subject would have probably fared better,or at least been more efficient.If one was totally blind(never ever seeing before)I would agree with 1vismans theory,(and as we all know that is an ideal or hypothetical set of facts,principles,or circumstances)point being even a blind person who once did see can probably visualize Hawaii better than you or I.Building character with good ethics will protect and the capabilities of being physically or emotionally wounded will be diminished when and if adversity strikes,enhancing their chances for victory. 1visman mentioned differences,regardless,I truly believe he is a good soul,and has helped many,his intention's are honorable,his methods a little stringent,yet applicable as drill instuctor. Semper-Fi"