Pro-Life, The only way to ensure innocent lives are not lost.

Round 1
goldspurs: "Gonovice, In this debate I wish to show you through facts that abortion is both wrong and should be illegal. While I understand this is a heated debate that causes many tempers to flare, I ask that you use facts to back up your opinions.

Contrary to popular belief, many scientific text books and scientist claim that life begins at conception. The baby is not created in the womb but develop. Did you know all major organ systems are created within the first 3 weeks? We know that a heartbeat can be heard within the first 21 days of conception. Does a heartbeat not signify a Life? Even after a baby leaves a womb it is still developing. Within the first 40 days measurable brain waves appear. In todays hospitals brain waves are used to determine if a person is still alive, not heartbeats. So if we were to use this method to determine Life in the womb, the majority of abortions would be done away with. (78% occur after brain waves appear)

http://www.cdc.gov...

The declaration of Independence of the United States of America claims, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among those are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" The right to life is one of the most important principles of law within a free republic. Did you know that California Law prohibits the killing of fetus, unless the mother wishes to ofcourse. Legal Definition of Murder CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SECTION 187-199 a.Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

But ofcourse they have a plan for those mothers out there that wish to keep living the good life and not face the consequences of their actions. Definition of Murder - Exceptions CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SECTION 187 This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply:

The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the mother of the fetus.

Seems like the law is a little hypocritical. In the law it say that the "mother" of the fetus is allowed to abort the baby. In order to be considered a mother of a fetus, doesn't the fetus have to be alive? How else can you be a mother of something that is not even a person?

I hope that you will address the questions I have brought up. I have plenty more points that I wish to address. -Brandon"

gonovice: "Fine you want facts well thats what youre going to get.

fact- some mothers have abortion to save their own lives. literally. in some situations mothers need an abortion to save their own lives. or maybe they have terminal cancer and their baby is at risk of contracting it. so in order to save their child from having to suffer from cancer. honorable thing to do in my book.

there are 45 million abortions a year performed in the united states.

abortion done as birth controll is the worst kind but i still believe that it is the mothers choice. thats 95% of women. 1% is done because of rape or incest. know doesnt that victim deserve to be able to have an abortion. what if she were 13 it most certainly isnt her fault she got pregnant. some women do it because of health reasons. a logical reason if you ask me. its a really good way to save the already living mother or prevent the baby from getting a serious disease. 38% do it at seven to eight weeks into the pregnancy. that is a time when you cant tell that a woman is even pregnant. 16% are done at six weeks, the baby is barely visible at that stage.

i will admit that some women have abortions for stupid reasons. like to keep their boyfriend from leaving.

But no matter how stupid the reason it is the mothers choice. it is there body and they ultimatley deserve the choice. i would never have an abortion just because I could never ever kill a baby. i get what youre saying and you make a very good point. but the think is that it should be the mothers decision. california is only one state what about all the others?

why dont you understand that it isnt the states and lawmakers decisions. it isnt their body and it isnt their choice

was that enough facts for you? i've got more but i have to get of the computer talk to you later.

-nikki"

Round 2
goldspurs: "Nikki, all of the facts you presented only helped to support my case. Lets make sure you know where I stand. If the doctor knows that having the baby will end up causing death for the mother, I accept abortion. But like you said over 95% of abortions are for birth control reasons.

I knew you would bring up the issue of its the "mother's"[sic] body. Explain to me how a fertilized human egg is part of the woman's body when nine months later it comes out as a seperate human being fully alive? Exactly when does it become its own body and not the woman's? The baby has its own heart, brain, blood supply (sometimes diffrent from the mother's), and its father's chromosomes. All this while still INSIDE the woman. Does this woman now have four eyes, twenty toes and fingers, and two noses since the life inside of her is only an extension of HER body,right?

The argument for pro-choice is very akin to those that supported slavery. In 1857, the Supreme Court, decided in the Dred Scott case that black people weren't legal persons and were the property of the owner. The slave owner could do whatever he wish with his slaves, even put them to death. Even though abolitionist objected that it is was discrimination against a human being based soley on the color of their skin. The slave owners contested that they didn't have to own slaves and not to push their morality on them. Jump forward almost a hundred years and you have the Roe vs Wade case in 1973. Once again you have the Supreme Court Ruling that unborn babies are not legal persons and are the sole property of the mother. She could do whatever she wanted with this baby, even put it to death. Ofcourse the pro-Life groups cried out that is was discrimination against age. Abortionist simply said,"Don't push your morality on us. We have every right to abort a devolping baby. No one said you had to abort unborn children". Little too close for comfort isn't it?

You also claim that many women use abortion for health reasons. What is really disturbing is that many women don't know how dangerous an abortion really can be. Thanks to a 1986 ruling by the Supreme Court, women no longer have to be informed about the horrible side effect that can accompany abortion. Such as: Intense Bleeding, Placental, Uteral, or Cervical Infenction or Rupture, Reduced Fertility, Breast Cancer, Infertility, Cervical Laceration, Uncontrollable blood clotting, Severe hemorrhage, Seizures, Coma, Cancer,and in some cases Death. Then their are the psychological side effects. A survey was conducted of 1900 women who had had abortions. The survey asked "Were there any negative psychological effects... [caused] by your abortion?" 94% answered "Yes." 2% answered "No." Another study was conducted by Dr. Anne Speckhard at the University of Minnesota. She concluded, "After 5-10 years 54% of mothers choosing abortion had nightmares, 81% had preoccupation with their aborted child, 35% had perceived visitations with their child, and 96% felt they had taken a human life." http://www.abortioninfo.net...

Guess that kind of puts a damper on the whole health excuse.

-Brandon"

gonovice: "I understand what you're saying. But why dont you think that it isnt the mothers choice. It's her body. That baby was not wanted if she is aborting it for birth control reasons. Just because there are health problems that come along after the abortion doesnt mean that it's going to stop the mother. If she really wants to get rid of the baby then she's going to.

I accept your argument that the baby is in fact living. Thats all fine and dandy, but if it was born at that time it would die, there would be no help in trying to save it. Yea, its brain and heart are develped but its lungs aren't. it would die. so why cant the mother choose to abort it at that time. it's at a stage where it cant really function on it's own.

at the stage i was talking about, in the case of the fertilized egg. at that time the baby isnt even a baby. so why cant you abort the baby at that time int the pregnancy.

i don't know, all i'm saying is that it shouldnt be the states decision or the nations. it's the mothers body and therefore the mother's choice.

please explain the slavery thing to me.


 * -nikki-*"

Round 3
goldspurs: "Nikki, you are failing to give me any reason why the Life inside a woman's body is not really a life but just an extension of her.

"Thats all fine and dandy, but if it was born at that time it would die, there would be no help in trying to save it."

What about babies that are born prematurely and live? 1 in 8 babies are born prematurely in the United States each year. Should we be allowed to murder those babies because the didn't develop as much as a baby that stayed in the womb for the full 9 months?

"Yea, its brain and heart are develped but its lungs aren't. it would die. so why cant the mother choose to abort it at that time. it's at a stage where it cant really function on it's own."

A newborn baby is self sufficient. Why can't you kill it? Hell, how many 5 year olds do you see running around taking care of themselves?

"it's the mothers body and therefore the mother's choice."

How is it the mother's body considering all the things I have brought up in the previous arguments? You are not giving a very compelling argument. Simply saying its the woman's body after everything does not make it right. To simply say that an unborn child has no right to life based on its residence and age is appalling. I have clearly established in my last argument that it is a seperate human being. You have shown nothing to refute this. The excuse that it is the woman's body is a cop out. It is a sorry excuse for people to commit murder. If the woman really is concerned about her body she would be more concerned about not getting pregnant in the first place. Sorry this is so short but I have already brought up so many points and you have done nothing to show that the unborn child is part of the woman and that she should have a choice to kill it or not. I really hope that in your next argument you refute my evidence with your own. - Brandon"

gonovice: "Brandon-

Here's what i'm thinking. you said that maybe the mother should have been more conscerned with her body before she got pregant. Well heres the thing what about the mothers who were raped? they probaly were conscerned with their body and didnt want to end up pregnant. what about all the mothers that wanted their baby and have to make the horrible choice: their life or their babies? what do you say to that.

I'm not talking about a premature that's like two or three months early. i'm talking about the mothers who go into labor way to early. If the baby was born at that time it would be dead.

It's a mothers choice because there is something growing and developing in her body. Maybe the baby isn't her body but that's where its living for 9 months and if the mother doesn't want it that badly why should'nt she be able to decide whether or not to abort her baby?

If you were a women, wouldn't you like to have that choice and have it be up to you? I sure would. That may be a difficult analigy for you cause you're not a woman, but I know that I would love that choice. I personally would never have an abortion, but that's cause I would never want to kill my baby but for some women it is their decision that they deserve to have.

What exactly is a cop out? Do you mean me using it in the debate, or what? I am only using it because it's true. It's the women's body that the baby is growing in, the baby isn't growing out in the open, is it?

all for now, well actually i have to get off the computer but you get the picture."

Round 4
goldspurs: "Nikki-

You bring up the issue of rape when it is such a small percentage of the actual abortions. In a study conducted by Dr Sandra Mahkorn, of the thankfully low rape victims she found that had become pregnant only 15% of the victims seeked abortion. http://www.pregnantpause.org... Could this be because having an abortion serves no real purpose in easing the pain of a woman who has been through rape? If it did wouldn't these figures be reversed? One of the women that was in the study put it best,"The solution to rape is not abortion. The solution to rape is stopping rape." Lets even say that abortion can be legal in that very minute situation where the mother is raped. How does that justify the majority of abortions (over 95% as you previously stated) that are used as birth control?

As far as health issues are concerned I have already awnsered this fully. The risks of abortions can be just as high as the health risks of having a baby. Why should I repeat myself when you haven't refuted my argument?

"I'm not talking about a premature that's like two or three months early."

What about a premature birth? Thats a miscarriage not an abortion. But to say that abortion is ok because it couldn't survive out of the womb on its on is nonsense. Like I have already said, how many 1 year olds do you see sustaining themselves. They are already out of the womb and they can't live on their own. Should a mother be able to kill them too??

Yes the baby is developing inside the mother's body. So what? You still don't explain how that is justification to kill the unborn child.

"Maybe the baby isn't her body but that's where its living for 9 months and if the mother doesn't want it that badly why should'nt she be able to decide whether or not to abort her baby?"

Thank you for finally admitting it isn't the mother's body. Awnser me this, if the mother doesn't want it after its born can she get rid of it then also? Saying it doesn't deserve life just because of its residence doesn't seem that logical.

"If you were a women, wouldn't you like to have that choice and have it be up to you?"

Would I of started this debate if I thought there should be a choice to kill an unborn child or not. It has nothing to do with me being a woman or not. 2/3 of all pro-life activist women have had an abortion and have seen the damaging effects. Exactly why do you "love" the choice? How can anyone live the choice of taking an innocent life to fulfill their own selfish needs? What gives you the right to end a life?

"It's the women's body that the baby is growing in, the baby isn't growing out in the open, is it?"

Actually the human body doesn't stop growin until your last few years as a teen.

I feel like I am running in circles with you. I constantly awnser your questions then provide my own evidence to support my debate. You bring nothing to the table but opinions. Nothing you have shown gives a solid reason why women should be allowed to have abortions. Maybe next round."

gonovice: "Brandon-

To answer your question, yes she could get rid of it. But what if it grows up hating it's adoptive parents? what if that leads to the child rebeling or worse. Not all people who adopt a baby are good parents. Yes, they have to pass several tests but what if they aren't suited to be parents.

I'll even admit that it is a living person. But at that point it is a potentialliving person. I bet you're going to have something to say about that but oh well. Until the mother gives birth that baby is always at risk of death. There is no guarentee that it is going to live.

The baby is it's own person, i'll give you that. But also until the mother goes into labor it is attached to it's mother correct? It's umbillical cord is what supplies it's blood, oxygen and nutrition. Without that connection to it's mother the baby would not be able to live. you can't even say I'm wrong, or you could, but to most people that fact is obvious.

Have you ever heard of the 19th amendment. That protects womens rights. maybe abortion isnt highlighted or even mentioned but that amendment applys that women deserve to make their own decisions in life and I think that by making abortion illegal it is saying that women don't deserve that choice. I get that it's mostly about voting but it does inply that women should be able to as well make important decisions.

is that enough facts for you?


 * -nikki-*"

Round 5
goldspurs: "Nikki-

Seeing as this is my last argument, I want to break down your last argument then give my reason for why you have not established why women chould be allowed to abort.

"But what if it grows up hating it's adoptive parents?"

So we kill a baby because it MIGHT not like its adoptive parents? My mother was adopted as an infant. My Mom and my sisters love my adoptive Grandparents. None of us would ever try to find our biological grandparents because in our view what we have couldn't get any better. My mom and myself are thankful for the chance. So giving what ifs is a poor excuse to end a life.

"Not all people who adopt a baby are good parents."

Not all biological parents are fit either. Doesn't mean you forbid everyone to from having children.

"I'll even admit that it is a living person. But at that point it is a potentialliving person."

Kind of contradicting yourself aren't you?? By the way, how is it a POTENTIAL LIVING PERSON when it already has a heartbeat?

"Until the mother gives birth that baby is always at risk of death. There is no guarentee that it is going to live."

So you kill it by aborting so it doesn't face that chance of death?? Huh? If you are talking about it being dependent upon the mother while in the womb, I have already told you that so is a newborn. Do you just purposely avoid my points?

"It's umbillical cord is what supplies it's blood, oxygen and nutrition."

Actually I have already shown that babies have their own blood supply that can be a diffrent type than the mother's. As far as nutrition goes the mother will breast feed after birth. Can we kill babies that are still at that stage of life?

"Without that connection to it's mother the baby would not be able to live."

Like I said before, how many 1 year olds can survive without parental supervision?

"and I think that by making abortion illegal it is saying that women don't deserve that choice."

Does a murderer get the choice to kill someone? Women deserve the choice to protect themselves from becoming pregnant in the first place. They don't deserve the choice to end a life because it might inconvenience them.

Through this whole debate I have established that the unborn baby is indeed a seperate life, an opinion supported by many scientist. I have also shown that the majority of abortions occur when the baby has its own heartbeat and brainwaves.

Most abortions are done for birth control reasons. This is selfish and should be outlawed. To allow someone to murder another because of its age and place of residence is sickening. You do not kill a baby for its dependence on its mother outside the womb. Why should you be allowed while its in the womb?

You have failed to refute any of the facts I have put before you. Actually most of your arguments only helped to support my claim that abortion should be outlawed. The one question I want to leave you with is: How would you feel if you knew you had been aborted? Yes it is a hypothetical question that aborted babies CAN'T awnser. But just because they can't speak doesn't give you a right to silence them. I enjoyed the debate, and hope that someday you will see that we have our own little holocaust and its called abortion.

Brandon"

gonovice: "I get what you're saying, I really do. It makes sense. But to say we have " our own little holocaust" I think that's being a little dramatic. Most mothers do use abortion as a form of birth control but it is still their decision. I think that calling abortion a holocaust is a little too dramatic. Hitler tortured the Jews for months on end, abortion is quick, the baby may feel it and that's horrible but no matter how this ends up it's still the mothers choice.

I cant really answer the question about how I would feel if I was aborted. I cant just because the baby cant speak and I wouldnt be alive right now if I was aborted so I dont really no the answer to that sorry.

I will admit that some women are promiscous. I dont know if that's the right word but I'm gonna use it anyway. Even though they are at fault for getting pregnant, it still is their body that the baby's living in and it's still their decision.

I know that you dont want to admit that it's the mothers body but it is. Until the baby is born it is living in the mothers body. I dont think that anyone can disagree with me on that. Maybe the baby is it's own person but it is still living in the mothers body. It's connected to her, and maybe it has got its own blood supply but it's still connected to the mother. and not all mothers breast feed so that really cant be relevent to anyone. Don't you know that the only way that the baby gets food during the pregnancy is through the umbillical cord.

I've had fun debating you brandon, I'd love to do it again sometime!!!!"